Trentside Tales - Nottingham Forest F.C & Notts CCC
- Neil Harrison
Message Board - Various Topics
25/2/13 - I read some interesting posts this morning on LTLF regarding 'Mull of Kintyre', not being as effective in the last few games as we all know it can be.
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For the most part, it is excellent and can make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. I for one think it absoutely should continue to be played at the start of each half, but it would be much more effective if it were accompanied with thousands of raised scarves ... you simply cannot fail to be to be impressed with Celtic fans ahead of every home game and 'You'll Never Walk Alone.'
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The song, MOK was released around December 1977 and from memory, I think the first time we 'adopted it' or I can remember it being sung was in that wonderful 4-0 win at Old Trafford on 17th Dec 1977. I am sure somebody will correct me if that is not accurate.
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It is also interesting to note, that in the 60's & 70's & possibly even early 80's, ALL fans still sang 'You'll Never Walk Alone.' I cannot remember when that stopped but I would say early 80's from memory. Today, of course it is just Celtic & Liverpool.
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MOK is almost entirely unique to Forest. Charlton I think, used to do it a bit but nowhere near the same level as LTLF of course. Anyhow, long may it continue.
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I also remember, back in the 60's & into the 70's, we used to run out to the Robin Hood theme. Now that is an absolutely crap song but I would definitely bring it back, even just to see how it goes down with everyone. It certainly is unique to Nottinghamshire. I seem to remember it getting a brief airing ahead of the Reading game on the 1st match of the season on our return to the Championship under Colin in 2008. It was not played as the players walked out but just pre-match, Robin's Reds perhaps.
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Anyhow, for those who, like me, love Notts CCC as well, plenty of Notts cricket fans (who I am sure double as Forest fans) wearing Robin Hood hats at various one day finals always looked quite impacting. Let's forget the green tights mind!
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So, for me, keep MOK & who would want to give RH a try ?
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w7ALMIUy74
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZp_PwWgrUI
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1st link is the old RH theme, 2nd one MOK ... COYR!
26/2/13 - FILLING THE CITY GROUND
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​​A few calls on Radio Nottingham's Matchtalk last night related to the 'special offer games' & this is by no means a new topic.
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My view, and I do not expect everyone to hold the same view, is quite simple. At the start of every season, everyone has a choice to make as to if they want, or are able to buy a Season Ticket. Different people for different reasons have different priorities.
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For the last 35 years or so of my 45 years of following the Reds, in our family, we HAVE chosen to buy Season Tickets. I think the prices are reasonable and am happy to pay them.
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The capacity at the City Ground is (with segregation) about 30K or just under. The average attendance, season to date is 22,721. Considering how things have been over the last two seasons, prior to Billy's return, & the fact that we have not been in the top flight this millenium shows what excellent loyal support we have. This is currently the 4th best in the league (Brighton 25,533, Sheff Weds 23,354, Derby 23,101) & by the end of the season will be at least the 3rd best. Considering the novelty factor for Brighton & Sheff Weds (back in the Championship after dropping to League One), that has to be encouraging for everyone connected with the Club. Our away support remains second to none, including the Premier League teams.
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Anyway, back to the point. The Huddersfield game was a £10 game for all and this helped attract a crowd of some 27K on a freezing cold Tuesday night for a then mid table Championship Club. We won 6-1 and everyone went home happy. I am delighted that fans who perhaps cannot afford to buy a season ticket or pay normal match day prices get the opportunity to go to at least some games, so if anything, I believe there should be a few more of these types of games, especially mid week.
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Clearly, there is a balance to be struck and as a long standing season ticket holder myself I fully understand that. However, if you have a stadium with 7,000 empty seats then you are not maximising your income streams. It is a bit like buying an item of clothing you like and then 2 months later, it is in the sale. So long as it made you happy when you bought it, then if someone else gets it in the sale, 'so what' would be my thoughts.
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It should also be remembered that as Season Ticket holders we also get other priviliges, Eg. Can purchase away memberships, priority on all Cup tickets etc and your seat is guaranteed every game.
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In conclusion, I would have say 2 or 3 more £10 games than we do at present. Historically, there have only been a couple per season albeit I know we do others such as 'Kids for a Quid'. I do think that Season Ticket holders who complain loudly about this should perhaps be a little more open minded towards those not quite as fortunate perhaps? Where the club can help, is if we get to the Play Off Final. They could allocate 2 tickets for Wembley per Season Ticket holder so that they can ensure the tickets still go to genuine Forest fans.
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Please feel free to comment but the fuller the City Ground, the better. It has to encourage the team. COYR!
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​April 2013 - What Capacity would we Ideally need In a Re-developed City Ground or New Stadium?
​There are without doubt pro's & con's as to whether or not we stay at the CG for our long term future or build a new stadium. This posting however is not about that particular debate but more about what Capacity would we ideally need in either case. Assuming that if we stay at the CG, we could increase the capacity to what we would ideally & realistically want.
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Rather than just pluck a figure at random, I think it is important to review our attendances through history. It is also very important however to recognise much change has taken place over the last 5 decades or so:, socially; football wise etc & as such there are many other things to factor in. This is by no means an exhaustive list but I have detailed below just some things to take into account when analysing historical data & the changes:
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- Cost
- Different attitudes towards Cup competitions
- All Seater Stadia
- Far more choice of alternative activities
- Capacities have changed through time & not just with the advent of all seater stadiums
- Club has been out of top flight since 1999 & spent 3 years in League One
- Live football on TV
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Taking the above into account and more, let's now have a look at some facts around previous attendances:
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1) The all time record for a game at the CG was set on 28th Oct 1967, 49,946 for the visit of Man Utd; a capacity crowd. In the previous season, 66/67, the Reds had reached the semi-final of the FACup & finished runners up in the league, and as such attendances had dramatically increased in the second half of the season. The following season, 67/68 also saw these continue although they dropped off in the second half of the season along with results.
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2) There have been 40 occasions where over 40,000 people have been present at the CG, 9 of these occured in 66/67, 3 of which were in the FACup.
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3) The highest ever 'Average league attendance' was 32,548 set in the 67/68 season, slightly beating 66/67's of 31,282 & 77/78's of 32,501. I have detailed below our best seasons in terms of attendances.
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4) You can see how Cup attendances affected things by studying the figues below:
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66/67 - League - High 47,188, Low 20,482, Average 31,282
- Lge Cup - High 19,271, Low 19,271, Average 19,271
- FACup - High 47,510, Low 34,005, Average 43,338
- All Competitions - High 47,510, Low 19,271, Average 32,675
* An incredible aggregate of 849,551 watched Forest at the CG across all the above competitions!
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67/68 - League - High 49,946, Low 20,658, Average 32,548
- FACup - High 37,299, Low 37,299, Average 37,299
- Fairs Cup - High 32,896, Low 27,090, Average 29,993
- All Competitions - High 49,946, Low 20,658, Average 32,533
* Another excellent aggregate of 813,341
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77/78 - League - High 47,218, Low 21,743, Average 32,501
- Lge Cup - High 38,131, Low 18,224, Average 28,154
- FACup - High 40,097, Low 28,953, Average 35,377
- All Competitions - High 47,218, Low 18,224, Average 32,298
* A staggering 936,652 watched Forest at the CG across all the above competitions - add in testimonials & friendlies/County Cup etc and we did probably break the 1m barrier.
78/79 - League - High 41,898, Low 20,388, Average 29,587
- Lge Cup - High 32,438, Low 18,669, Average 27,259
- FACup - High 35,908, Low 25,228, Average 30,568
- European Cup - High 40,804, Low 31,949, Average 37,285
- All competitions - High 41,898, Low 18,669, Average 30,446
* Another excellent aggregate of 913,385 watched the above competitions at the CG - again add in friendlies etc & probably again around the 1m mark.
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When the ground record was broken in 1967, the official capacity was stated as 50,000. When the side gained promotion back to Div 1 in 77/78, the capacity for the season was officially 47,000. For the following season (78/79), it had been reduced further to 42,000 based on safety improvements, additional fencing & further segregation. Additional seats were also installed in the Main Stand, replacing some terracing, on the clubs return to Div 1. A further consideration was that towards the end of the 78/79 season, building work had begun on the Executive Stand (now Brian Clough of course), thus reducing the capacity dramatically with the loss of the old East Stand.
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Upon completion of the Executive Stand (BC), we had 2 fully seated stands and 2 terraced & the official capacity was around 35,000. Massively declining attendances for much of the 80's across the country meant this was not required very often.
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The next major development work was the building of the Bridgford Stand in 1992/93 which obviously reduced the capacity whilst being built and indeed when completed based on how many the old Bridgford terrace used to accomodate. With just the Trent End left as terracing, the capacity at this point was around 27,000.
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The new Trent End was completed in 1995, and the official all seater stadium had a capacity of 30,602. That is still currently the figure although probably a few less now with the new big screen at the Bridgford End. However, with segregation etc, the actual amount we can get in is probably just under 30,000, although the record attendance since it has been all seater was set at 30,025 on 6th Feb 1999 (& that 1-8 defeat! to Man Utd).
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Our best figures since it has been all seater occured in the 95/96 season and are as follows:
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95/96 - League - High 29,263, Low 20,810, Average 25,915
- Lge Cup - High 15,321, Low 15,321, Average 15,321
- FACup - High 21,067, Low 15,050, Average 17,817
- UEFA Cup - High 28,844, Low 22,141, Average 25,716
- All competitions - High 29,263, Low 15,050, Average 24,126
* Aggregate 699,667
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The best this millenium was for the visit of Derby on the 19th March 2003, 29,725. We know that CG crowds have generally held up well, even for those 3 seasons in league One. Our current season average is 22,583 & climbing again since we got our Billy back.
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The previous 10 seasons average league attendances have been as follows with 7 of the 10 seasons spent in the Championship:
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11/12 - 21,969
10/11 - 23,274
09/10 - 23,831
08/09 - 22,299
07/08 - 19,955 - league one
06/07 - 20,617 - league one
05/06 - 20,257 - league one
04/05 - 23,652
03/04 - 24,752
02/03 - 24,436
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So an awful lot of factual data then. As to arriving at what our capacity should be, it is dependant on so many variables as to how many we think we can get on a regular basis. It is fairly well proven that new stadia often brings in new fans. Promotion and staying in the Premier League certainly will, and how well we do and play obviously will have a significant bearing.
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How good can we be? Fawaz & Billy certainly look a great team but there is massive competition out there.
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For me, and my website alone shows what an optimist I am, I do not think we can ever return to the European Cup winning glories; not even if we are still playing in a thousand years, such was that achievement.
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I do though think we can return to the levels of those excellent late 80's, very early 90's sides, where trips to Wembley were common place; the football was fantastic, & we regularly finished high up in the league. I think 99.5 % of Forest fans would more than settle for that. If we do achieve more, then I'll take it of course and never say never. I'd be ecstatic with a mid table Premier finish; good football, & finally winning the FACup in my lifetime. I was born in 1961, 2 years after we last managed it - we had the heartache of 1974 as I have alluded to many times, & the pain of 91, 89 & 88 where we came very close so, I'd love us to win the FACup.
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If we can achieve that level of sustained success then I believe we could build a stadium with say a 38,000 capacity. I think we would get crowds regularly of around 30,000 filling it for the very big games provided prices were reasonable & all factors considered. The question of re-developing the CG v move to a new stadium is a different question of course ... but I believe we will now stay at the CG. I doubt though that the City council will ever sell the land on which the CG sits ... but for me then, a 38,000 CG capacity is the way forward.
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30/4/13 - A couple of questions to consider re ' Bridgford Lower' & 'What Capacity would we require in the Premier League'
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​1) If we get into the Premier League, would it be best to re-develop the City Ground or move to a new Stadium? &
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2) Where should we put the Away fans at the CG? (Regardless of what Division we are in) ...
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I have a very open mind on the 1st question. I don't think the subject will be seriously considered until we get there, and then of course getting there is one thing and staying there another. I will assume therefore that we do manage to consolidate ourselves in the Premier League & base my thoughts and considerations on that.
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In my article 'What capacity would we require in the Premier League', I have looked at historical data in quite some detail, but that obviously is not the only measure to consider. I am led to believe that in staying and re-developing, there would be certain restrictions and we do not own the Ground either of course. It would be wonderfully nostalgic to stay put but I think all factors considered, we would struggle to take the capacity much above 36,000. Hopefully, planning would allow the Bridgford Upper to be raised to the same level all the way across, and then a new main Stand would need to hold somewhere in the region of 10,000 with around 2,000 extra seats in the Bridgford Upper. All figures are approximate of course but this would mean Trent End 7,500 approx, Increased Bridgford End 9,500 approx, New Main Stand 10,000 approx, BC Stand 9,000 approx = 36,000. That may well be enough.​
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If we moved, then I think we would hopefully build a stadium to hold 40-42,000 and hopefully use the Stadium for other major events. It would I am sure bring with it superb travel links and state of the art facilities. I don't normally have a problem holding strong views but I really am 50-50 on this one.​
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The 2nd question is much easier for me. If we stay at the CG, regardless of what Division we are in, I would have the entire Bridgford End as home fans only and I would re-house the away fans in the BC stand on the following basis:
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The BC Stand holds approximately 9,000, roughly split 6,000 upper tier and 3,000 lower tier. I would divide each into 3, so 2K, 2K, 2K in the upper tier & 1K 1K 1K in the lower. I appreciate the upper might hold just over 6K and the lower just under 3K but I am talking rough figures. That would allow us to vary the allocation we give to between 1,000 & 5,000 and could mix & match accordingly inbetween. Obviously we need to offer 15% for cup ties but in the Championship anywhere between 1-3,000 would satisfy almost all clubs. I would be happy to say give Derby 4-5,000 provided they reciprocate when we go there.
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Obviously, if the capacity increases due to promotion and re-development of the CG, then the allocations could be varied if required if the BC Stand were divided this way. I appreciate it is always easy to spend other people's money and therefore this is just what I would do if up to me. I would situate the away fans by the way at the Trent End 'end' of the BC Stand, which is where we used to put away fans in the old East Stand.
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I also know there are difficulties for the Club in being able to make such a change, but as I always say ... back in 1969, we managed to send men to the moon and return them safely to the Earth so by comparison ... Is this so unachievable? I don't know any Forest fans who think it's a good idea to put the away fans in the Bridgford Lower ... and I am pretty sure Billy doesn't want them in there either. I am absolutely convinced that having them there, certainly in any number is a big help to the away team, they would be more 'out of sight' in the BC Stand. Just my opinion of course!
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Further Note:
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I would put the away fans in the Brian Clough Stand at the Trent End 'end' of the ground. The BC stand holds roughly 9,000 with just over 6,000 in the upper tier and just under 3,000 in the lower tier - approximately. Basically split both tiers into 3 blocks, so 3 blocks of 2,000 in the top and 3 blocks of 1,000 in the lower. That would then allow us to offer allocations of between 1-5,000, so could accomodate cup allocations etc. For most Championship games, a 2,000 allocation would be sufficient. It may be that we allocate the BC lower but we will find out in due course. Big well done to the club though.
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21/5/13 - Seems this is still in a consultation period! See link below:
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http://www.nottinghamforest.co.uk/news/article/bridgford-stand-statement-830894.aspx
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European Cup v Champions League:
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​Congratulations to Bayern Munich for winning the European Cup (or Champions League) for the 5th time (both formats).
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I have to say however I get sick of hearing some pundits banging on though of how much harder it is to win now than it was when it was the old European Cup format. (1955/56 to 1991/92 inclusive).
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For me, the achievement is equal and it is nothing other than disrespectful to suggest otherwise.
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In the current format, there are more 'big' teams which does make it more difficult from one point of view but on the opposite side of the coin, you previously had to be Champions of your country (or holders) to even get into it, and you didn't get a 'second chance' as arguably you do get in the Champions League group stages, i.e) you could lose twice to the same team and still progress.
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Interestingly, only 22 Clubs have been crowned 'Champions of Europe'. Of these only 12 have won it twice or more:
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Clubs who have won it twice or more (both formats) - Real Madrid, AC Milan, Bayern Munich, Liverpool, Barcelona, Ajax, Inter-Milan, Man Utd, Juventus & Porto.
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Clubs who have won it twice (old format only) - Benfica & Nottm Forest.​
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For the most part it is the same clubs who are being succesful whatever the format. I know in a world of football now governed by money, it is almost impossible for a club the size of Forest to win it again or even get close but the fact remains we did it and nobody can ever take away that nor stop us singing "We went to Europe, we won the Cup twice"
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The likes of a club the size of Forest winning it will never be seen again, let alone retain it. Even Man Utd have not managed that.
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NFFC - Greatest Ever Achievement - See On this day section 27/5/80 - Madrid Bound for the European Cup Final 28/5/80 & also see attached link:
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Hi Ben,
Just a short note to say, I think the Club have made the correct announcement today regarding not moving home fans out of the Bridgford Upper.
However, I do think that Away fans should still be relocated, and that the Bridgford Lower should be 'home fans only' or at least in part.
I fully appreciate that I am not privy to some of the difficulties associated with what 'we' as a Club are trying to do, nor am I aware of the full picture but I would like to suggest a couple of potential solutions. I am sure they may well not be the 1st time you have heard them but I thought it was at least worth an email.
My 'Plan A' would be to divide the BC Stand, Upper & Lower Tiers into 3 blocks and then house the away fans at the Trent End 'end' of the BC Stand. Broadly speaking, I believe the BC Stand holds 9,000 which is split just over 6,000 in the upper tier & just under 3,000 in the lower tier.
For most Championship games the away club brings between 1-3,000 & therefore if they were bringing 3,000, then they could have 2,000 upper tier & 1,000 lower tier. If it was a midweek game and a club were only going to bring up to a 1,000, then they would just get the lower tier block and so on.
Season tickets could then still be sold in the BC Stand both upper & lower tiers with the small proviso that for say Cup ties when we have to make 15% of capacity available, then they may have to relocate. Looking at many attendances for Cup ties across the country, this should not pose a major problem but we could comfortably offer 4,500-5,000. I do accept there would be ground improvement costs and it's always easy of course to spend other peoples money.
If this option is a complete 'no-no' with the authorities, then my Plan B would be as follows:
When we still had terracing, the away fans used to stand on the corner of the Bridgford End and their seating allocation used to be one block of the BC lower which represented about 800 sears I think. So, would it be possible to give them these 800 and then up to say 2,000 seats in the Bridgford lower BUT starting right in the corner. This would still allow around 2,500 home fans in the lower tier as I believe the capacity of the Bridgford lower is some 4,750. I am sure adequate segregation could still be maintained or made good.
Finally, is it possible to give all the BC lower (just under 3,000) ad then an additional 1,500 to meet Cup requirements?
Appreciate, you will have much going on but hope this might just help a little.
Regards
Neil Harrison
29/5/13 - Sent this email to the City Ground ... Just my views really on this ongoing subject.
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